Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 6 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 91

Thread: Inside Hip Drive discussion

  1. #1
    My horse knows his own way home Snow Sport Instructor SMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Central MA
    Posts
    2,471
    Blog Entries
    7

    Inside Hip Drive discussion

    I have read the term inside hip drive many times and want to start over to fully understand it. I will start with my current understanding which may or may not be accurate.

    While making a left turn;
    The hips move to the left.
    The front of the left hip is the focus, moving it forward and thus squaring the hips up more to the fall line.


    How is that description? I'm sure there's a temporal aspect to this as well, when does this drive occur during the turn?
    I need to be a conqueror, a liberator of my potential, kept prisoner all these years.

  2. #2
    Furnished the apartment Skier Village Coach
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    564
    It all depends what kind of turns you are making SMJ. In racing it is desirable to get high edge angles and pressure early. In this case you want early counter, and this means that you are more countered than square at the fall line. Square is a very weak position if you want to be highly angulated. If you are cruising around not caring about high edge angles etc you can "ski into counter" as PSIA calls it, but personally I would not call that inside hip drive.

    Without edge angles there is no a compelling reason for inside hip drive, and that is why I tell my junior to drive the inside the hip forward AND UP. The up part gives you great angulation and to someone who has just been pushing the whole hip to the inside it can be a real epiphany.

  3. #3
    My horse knows his own way home Little Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Australia & Colorado
    Posts
    2,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
    Without edge angles there is no a compelling reason for inside hip drive, and that is why I tell my junior to drive the inside the hip forward AND UP. The up part gives you great angulation and to someone who has just been pushing the whole hip to the inside it can be a real epiphany.
    Good description I think...
    This is how it feels to me too...

  4. #4
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,419
    Through last season I focused on inside shoulder and arm drive when carving. I was working on intuition without coaching, so I learned if I discovered that if I progressively moved that inside shoulder up and forward along with the whole arm and hand, I got much better carving grip. This summer in my reading on this forum I've learned that the better focus is the inside hip - it's much closer to the ski. I think my focus on the shoulder pulled the hip along with it thus assuring my success, but I'm planning on focusing on that hip this season.

  5. #5
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,419
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
    It all depends what kind of turns you are making SMJ. In racing it is desirable to get high edge angles and pressure early. In this case you want early counter, and this means that you are more countered than square at the fall line. Square is a very weak position if you want to be highly angulated. If you are cruising around not caring about high edge angles etc you can "ski into counter" as PSIA calls it, but personally I would not call that inside hip drive.

    Without edge angles there is no a compelling reason for inside hip drive, and that is why I tell my junior to drive the inside the hip forward AND UP. The up part gives you great angulation and to someone who has just been pushing the whole hip to the inside it can be a real epiphany.
    This distinction between PSIA turns and race turns is important for people (like me) who want to get their Level II certification. My PSIA examiner-trainer at my former mountain was always criticizing my early counter. He'd repeat to everyone that we needed to SKI INTO COUNTER. The counter should not be actively made to happen by the skier early in the turn, that was a PSIA no-no. It needed to happen late in the turn, and appear as a "natural" progressive result of the femurs turning in the hip sockets. I think. Still unclear about that.

    Now I know that whether early counter is used or not has to do with the type of turn you're making. Thanks Jamt for clarifying this. Steered turns are ski-into-counter turns. Carved turns are inside-hip-drive turns.

  6. #6
    Looking for an apartment Snow Sport Instructor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
    Steered turns are ski-into-counter turns. Carved turns are inside-hip-drive turns.
    I don't buy this distinction. Go to the Movement Matrix and watch the D team do both. Michael Rogan clearly skis into and out of counter on his very high edge angle carving.

    The question is; What raises the inside hip? How is the inside hip driven forward, where does that force come from? Is one leg more stationary with the other leg rotating around the stationary leg. In other words, Is the inside leg actively moving forward in relation to the outside leg or the other way around?

    PSIA's position does not come from anyone except the D-Team. Any other source is at least second hand and that includes examiners. Through an examiner, your interpretation is at least third hand. Robin Barnes along with Mike Rogan laid out PSIA's take on this in the winter 2011 issue of 32 Degrees starting on page 74.

    USSA's position on technique/tactics is derived by a different method. Wining racers set the techniques and tactics with top level coaches disseminating the information as they see it. Rick can correct me if I am wrong but, as I understand it, there is no real formal approach between top level coaches to come to a consensus on technique/tactics. Each has their own slightly different opinions and let the chips fall where they may. Eventually a general consensus emerges but can cause great confusion in the lower ranks as everything is sorted out on the race hill. For USSA, the proof is in the times.

    Multiple sourcing is always good except in the teaching portion of an exam.

  7. #7
    I have my own seat in the pub Skier Village Coach Coach Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    City Above The Clouds, Colorado
    Posts
    3,834
    Inside hip drive means you are driving the downhill hip (inside hip of the new turn) forward, more so than the uphill hip, though it too will be dragged forward by driving forward of the downhill hip, just not as much. The downhill (new inside) hip drives the action, focus is on it, and it ends up leading the outside hip, creating a state of counter for the new turn. And Jamt is very correct in stressing the importance of the up factor. As you drive the new inside hip forward you're simultaneously tipping onto edge for the new turn, and you Center of Mass it thereby dropping. The imagery goal is to keep your inside hip as high as possible while that drop occurs. In essence, trying to keep the pelvis level to the snow as your CM falls into the turn. That enables good angulation.

    Inside hip drive begins at the beginning of the transition, as the skis begin rolling off edge from the previous turn. The previous turn, in most cases, had some degree of counter involved. Inside hip drive eliminates that old turn counter, bringing the pelvis back to square with the skis, and then continues until early new turn counter is established for the initiation of the new turn. That elimination of old turn counter and early establishment of new turn counter fostered by "inside hip drive" makes rolling onto a clean carving edge at the top of the turn, minus any pivot, so much easier.

    If you don't eliminate the old turn counter you enter the new turn rotated. That introduces a few things that challenges the ability to initiate a quality, non pivoted, arc to arc carve transition. First, that rotated position creates a conflict/torque in the mid section of the body which causes the skis to want to pivot the moment old turn edge engagement is released. The upper body and lower body naturally want to return to directional harmony, so the skis and legs auto rotate back into alignment with the downhill facing upper body the moment the skis are no longer edge locked into the snow. The result; a pivot. It takes a concerted muscular effort to keep that pivot from happening. If a pivot is desired, then great, it's a very effective tool. But if a pivot is not desired, then skiing into counter just interjects more required effort than is necessary.

    The second challenge skiing into counter introduces into arc to arc carving is negative body mechanics. Having the pelvis facing down the falline at the moment of initiation makes it more difficult for hips to smoothly and effortlessly fall into the new turn while the upper body angulates. It's like you've constructed a barricade to rapid and effortless early edge angle development. Next time you're all out skiing, give it a try. Make 90 degree carved turns, keeping your pelvis and upper body at all times facing down the falline, then try to initiate a non pivoted carved turn, without allowing your upper body to leave that down the falline orientation. You'll find it needlessly difficult.

    The final negative skiing into counter introduces into arc to arc carving is foot mechanics. Inside hip drive moves the Center of Mass forward, and brings the pelvis back to square, which drives the new outside foot into pronation. That moves pressure to the big toe side of the foot, exactly where you want it for executing a solid edge engagement for initiation of the new turn. Without the solid engagement, the initiation is just not going to be as strong and precise.
    YOUR SKI COACH - Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

    * Instructional DVDs * Technical Articles * On Hill Coaching

    www.YourSkiCoach.com

  8. #8
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,419
    I'll add one more though into this conversation. Driving the new inside hip forward and up does not mean the new inside FOOT goes forward. It stays back. The hip and shoulder and arm above it go up and forward; the foot does not. That inside ski needs its tip to dig into the snow; it won't happen if the foot goes forward along with the hip. Keeping that foot back while driving that hip forward and up is a complex move; it doesn't come intuitively. The foot wants to go forward along with the hip. You gotta work at separating the upper inside half from the lower inside half in whatever this plane is.

    Do you experts with more experience than me agree?

  9. #9
    I have my own seat in the pub Skier Village Coach Coach Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    City Above The Clouds, Colorado
    Posts
    3,834
    Just found this clip in another thread, provided by Jamt, and it's a great example of the negative effects on arc to arc transition introduced by "skiing into counter", as I described in my prior post. In the following turns the demonstrators are "skiing into counter". They're keeping their upper body facing down the falline through the transition. Upon first look many would classify these turns as arc to arc carved short turns, but they're not. In the slow mo segments you can clearly see the top of the turn pivot while the skis are light, followed by hard pressure and carving after the pivot has taken place. It's what allows them to make these short, dynamic turns on the relatively low edge angles they're employing. Have a look:

    YOUR SKI COACH - Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

    * Instructional DVDs * Technical Articles * On Hill Coaching

    www.YourSkiCoach.com

  10. #10
    I have my own seat in the pub Skier Village Coach Coach Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    City Above The Clouds, Colorado
    Posts
    3,834
    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
    I'll add one more though into this conversation. Driving the new inside hip forward and up does not mean the new inside FOOT goes forward. It stays back. The hip and shoulder and arm above it go up and forward; the foot does not. That inside ski needs its tip to dig into the snow; it won't happen if the foot goes forward along with the hip. Keeping that foot back while driving that hip forward and up is a complex move; it doesn't come intuitively. The foot wants to go forward along with the hip. You gotta work at separating the upper inside half from the lower inside half in whatever this plane is.

    Do you experts with more experience than me agree?
    That's spot on.
    YOUR SKI COACH - Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

    * Instructional DVDs * Technical Articles * On Hill Coaching

    www.YourSkiCoach.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •