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Thread: Pushing the feet forward at transition

  1. #21
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    You need to be careful in using the inside hip push that you don't forget about ankle activity in edge management and new inside ski divergence.

  2. #22
    I have my own seat in the pub Skier Village Coach Coach Rick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
    You need to be careful in using the inside hip push that you don't forget about ankle activity in edge management and new inside ski divergence.
    Hi Kneale. Thanks for the input. Please expand, if you will, on the specific troubles you've experienced while teaching it.
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  3. #23
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    I've found the focus on moving the inside hip in and forward (I've used the idea of pointing the iliac crest into the turn) leads recreational skiers into reduced activity at the feet (such as rolling the feet for edging adjustment, no opening and closing of the ankle joint) and overpressuring of the inside ski, often with excessive inside ski lead and divergence.

  4. #24
    I have my own seat in the pub Skier Village Coach Coach Rick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
    I've found the focus on moving the inside hip in and forward (I've used the idea of pointing the iliac crest into the turn) leads recreational skiers into reduced activity at the feet (such as rolling the feet for edging adjustment, no opening and closing of the ankle joint) and overpressuring of the inside ski, often with excessive inside ski lead and divergence.
    Interesting, thanks, kneale. I haven't found the same issues. Then, I do extensive work on basic balance, angulation and edging skills before I introduce inside hip drive, so perhaps that explains why. By the time a student learns about pelvic rotation skills, counter, etc, they already have very good balance and edging skills, so the introduction of pelvic movement doesn't much disrupt what's happening in those areas. In fact, they learn to combine various edging and balance options with the pelvic motion.

    PS; For what it's worth, I do stress the value of edge management at the ankle level, but I tend to not focus on it as a primary edging tool. I explain it as more of a fine tuning, micro managing tool. I want the primary driver to be lateral pelvic movement. I've seen a time, several years back, when tipping the feet was stressed as the primary driver of edge development. The problems I witnessed from this was people tipping their shins to put the skis on edge, but the body remained above the feet, The skier would end up in a weak, knee angulated stance. Even when the pelvis followed the knees to the inside of the turn, they were doing just that, following, playing catchup, leaving the skier in a constant state of less that optimal position of strength. When lateral pelvic movement leads the tipping action, the leg starts and remains in a strong position, throughout the tipping process, with the outside knee always in alignment with the foot and hip.
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  5. #25
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Rick View Post
    Interesting, thanks, kneale. I haven't found the same issues. Then, I do extensive work on basic balance, angulation and edging skills before I introduce inside hip drive, so perhaps that explains why. By the time a student learns about pelvic rotation skills, counter, etc, they already have very good balance and edging skills, so the introduction of pelvic movement doesn't much disrupt what's happening in those areas. In fact, they learn to combine various edging and balance options with the pelvic motion.

    PS; For what it's worth, I do stress the value of edge management at the ankle level, but I tend to not focus on it as a primary edging tool. I explain it as more of a fine tuning, micro managing tool. I want the primary driver to be lateral pelvic movement. I've seen a time, several years back, when tipping the feet was stressed as the primary driver of edge development. The problems I witnessed from this was people tipping their shins to put the skis on edge, but the body remained above the feet, The skier would end up in a weak, knee angulated stance. Even when the pelvis followed the knees to the inside of the turn, they were doing just that, following, playing catchup, leaving the skier in a constant state of less that optimal position of strength. When lateral pelvic movement leads the tipping action, the leg starts and remains in a strong position, throughout the tipping process, with the outside knee always in alignment with the foot and hip.
    I think I do that. I use ankle tipping as the primary action for edging, and end up getting solid "knee angulation." Yes I know the knees don't bend sideways, but knee angulation exists nevertheless. Once I learned to tip at the ankles I stopped dropping my hips.

    I used to drop them so far people would either be envious, or they would tell me I was hip dumping and to stop it. I got both responses and trusted the hip dumping crowd more than the envious one. It's been a long time since I let my hip go low. Perhaps it's time for me to go back to hip angulating and see if I can do it without the rotation of the pelvis so it won't be hip dumping any more.

    I've been wondering if tipping the ankles, then the knees, then finally the hips but only when the range of motion runs out, is the way to go. What you just said seems to be a solid no. I gather that the reason is for strength, not cosmetics (heaven forbid!), nor for specific manipulation of the ski-snow interaction?
    Last edited by LiquidFeet; March 24th, 2014 at 08:47 PM.

  6. #26
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    I think of edging movements as needing to be progressive. They start at the feet and move up the body as required for the circumstances. I can see how including the pelvic push as part of beginning edging movements would apply for handling forces generated by racing speeds. I used to think including it helped recreational skiers "get" movement into the turn, but, as I noted, I also see it resulting in undesirable outcomes I don't want.

  7. #27
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
    I've found the focus on moving the inside hip in and forward (I've used the idea of pointing the iliac crest into the turn) leads recreational skiers into reduced activity at the feet (such as rolling the feet for edging adjustment, no opening and closing of the ankle joint) and overpressuring of the inside ski, often with excessive inside ski lead and divergence.
    Kneale, tomorrow I will go out and begin to revisit hip angulation as the start-action for new turns. Your list of no-nos is what I'll be looking for. I suppose if I don't get the divergence nor the leaning in nor end up aft, I'll be good to go. I do know how to flex that inside leg and how to direct the forces of the turn to the outside ski; simply checking to see if I can lift the inside ski during the turn is the self-diagnosis that works.

    Working on technique is fun.

  8. #28
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    See if you can keep the outside edge of the inside ski engaged (same narrow track as the outside ski's) when not unweighting the inside ski. What I've seen is a flat inside ski or a diverging inside ski (more skidded-looking track).

  9. #29
    Moderator Snow Sport InstructorSkier Village Coach LiquidFeet's Avatar
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    Thanks, Kneale. I tried "hip angulation" as opposed to my usual ankle-first, knee-second, hip-third turns today. Couldn't feel any difference between the two, so something must be wrong. I need a seasoned eye to watch me and tell me if the two LOOK different or not. They certainly ski the same. I must be stuck in my current habit.

    I love the feeling of the little toe edge; I think of it as my secret "home base."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
    Thanks, Kneale. I tried "hip angulation" as opposed to my usual ankle-first, knee-second, hip-third turns today. Couldn't feel any difference between the two, so something must be wrong. I need a seasoned eye to watch me and tell me if the two LOOK different or not. They certainly ski the same. I must be stuck in my current habit.

    I love the feeling of the little toe edge; I think of it as my secret "home base."
    If you focus on tipping the inside foot and lifting the inside hip to the point where it lightens the inside pressure you will get both hip and knee angulation. Just increase it progressively until it is time to reduce again. IMO whether the knee or hip angulation comes first is mostly a mental cue. They should happen together. However, I think that most hip dumpers never really use knee angulation. If you tip from the feet it feels very strange to hip dump.

    Regarding the original topic of this thread I view it as simply a way to move the body to where it needs to be in the future rather than a fixed position right now. The simplest example is a hockey stop. You can twist the skis 90 degrees and then start to incline in a direction opposite to the movement direction. The other way is to immediately start to incline before you twist the skis, and this means backwards. You will be faster to reach a powerful hockey stop.

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