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Thread: Tipping the foot inside the boot is actually twisting at the ancle!

  1. #1
    Still unpacking boxes Skier Village Coach TDK's Avatar
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    Tipping the foot inside the boot is actually twisting at the ancle!

    Much has been written on the topic and there has been many threads and discussions. Still, tipping the foot inside the ski boot remains a big mystery to many.

    How do I tip my foot inside a rigid snugg fitting ski boot is the big question? The answere is that you do not tip your foot inside the ski boot. Insted you are twisting your foot at the ancle. This movement causes inversion and eversion of your foot depending on which way you are twisting your foot. At the same time you twist at the ancle you rotate your femour in the hip socket. Its because your knee joint cannot flex sideways, your whole lower and upper leg needs to turn in one unit causing your ski boot to tip sideways.

    There are two ways of looking at this. Sit down in your chair and point your knees outwards. Your feet should also point outwards since they try to align themselves to your lower leg and knee. Now, twist at the ancle to turn your feet to point straight forward but dont move your knees. Or, start off by poining your knees and feet straight forward. Then point your knees out but leave your feet at the floor. Same thing.

    I can think of three things that limits your range of tipping your feet:
    - Limited range of motion at the ancle
    - Insufficient knowledge of how to tip
    - Boot cuff too tight not allowing your lower leg and shin to twist.

    Any thaughts on this?
    Carving - let the skis turn you, not you turning your skis

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    when the leg is bent the lower leg can rotate 30-40 degree internally or externally in the horizontal plane. There are no muscles to drive this rotation, however if you push the knee with the femur with the feet not rotating accordingly in the subtalar joint this rotation will happen. This puts the knee in a very weak position, in particular the ACL which limits this rotation may be injured if you absorb too much external force in this position.
    To get a sense for this you can lift you leg to a 90 degree bend in the knee. Grab the lower leg with the hands and rotate.

  3. #3
    Still unpacking boxes Skier Village Coach TDK's Avatar
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    Great input here. Im gonna jump right into your posting with a few questions and comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
    when the leg is bent the lower leg can rotate 30-40 degree internally or externally in the horizontal plane. There are no muscles to drive this rotation, however if you push the knee with the femur with the feet not rotating accordingly in the subtalar joint this rotation will happen.

    Im of the opinion that there are muscles with which you can rotate at the subtalar joint. If I hold my foot up in the air I can wiggle it left and right without my leg moving. So there must be muscles doing the job. When I place my foot on the floor and try the same I need to activate my femure muscles to rotate the femure in the hip socket. Its kind of hard to isolate the muscles that are working all at the same time so its hard to tell how much muscle input there is at the subtalar joint. Is this correct?

    BTW, this is the reason I dont really believe in "starting the turn by tipping your feet". I think its a combination of using your big and strong femure muscles to do the job.



    This puts the knee in a very weak position, in particular the ACL which limits this rotation may be injured if you absorb too much external force in this position.

    You are now refering to rotating your leg inwards are you not? Like A-framing! Im focussing on rotating my inside leg outwards, inwards into the turn. This rotation is very subtle and merely helps the foot stay correctly aligned insted of moving very far out of its neutral position.

    To get a sense for this you can lift you leg to a 90 degree bend in the knee. Grab the lower leg with the hands and rotate.

    This last paragraph I dont understand. Can you explain a bit closer.
    Carving - let the skis turn you, not you turning your skis

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    Off course you can rotate the subtalar joint. I was not talking about moving the foot, I was talking about rotation of the lower leg in the knee.

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    Still unpacking boxes Skier Village Coach TDK's Avatar
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    This is my point exactly. So why are we talking about "tipping with the feet" when we actually rotate our femours in our hip sockets? And why are we doing this in the first place if it puts us in a week position and our ACL at risk?
    Carving - let the skis turn you, not you turning your skis

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    if you tip the feet the femur rotates a certain amount. If you continue to press the femur the rotation continues in the knee. The latter is not good IMO, but some literature promote it.

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    Still unpacking boxes Skier Village Coach TDK's Avatar
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    So this is bad?

    Name:  TedTed.JPG
Views: 118
Size:  9.9 KB
    Carving - let the skis turn you, not you turning your skis

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    I have my own seat in the pub Bushido Princess's Avatar
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    Is it physically possible to twist the ankle in a well fitting boot? I start tipping by pressuring the bottoms of my feet.

  9. #9
    Still unpacking boxes Skier Village Coach TDK's Avatar
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    BP, how do you pressure the bottom of your feet? Pressure is something that is a result of gravity pulling on your mass and the ground resisting. Your weight is what is causing pressure under your feet. So you cannot increase pressure by just pressing more. You need to add weight or pull yourself down. Or shift weight from one leg to annother. Still that would at the same time decrease pressure on the other foot. One way of adding pressure would be extending up to up-unweight. Or when we turn, turn forces kick in and we gain pressure from changing direction. Entering the pressure phase of the turn.

    However, I suspect that you just twist your ancles and the combination of compressing in a snugg boot and less feet area to stand over causes the sensation of more pressure. Note that turn forces kick in pretty quickly so that might add to the increase of pressure.

    Im also not saying that you could not twist your foot inside the boot. Merely that its not what people claim it is, tipping the foot inside the boot. Its more like "twisting" the foot and rotating the femure in the hip socket. Simply twisting your ancle will not cause any significant movement. Its a simultanious movement of twisting the ancle and rotating your femur in the hip socket. Note that when you twist your foot it also Inverts or Everts, depending on which foot in which direction.

    Then there is the claim that ancle tipping gives you a week position. Im sure Jamt will jump in and expand on this topic. Because its not that simple. Its a question of timing and at what part of the turn or which turn type you use that determines if its week or not. If you are snaking down in the fall line or going far across the slope from side to side? Are you simply tipping your feet or also follow up with your hips. Something Ted is doing in the turn the framecapture is pulled out of.
    Carving - let the skis turn you, not you turning your skis

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDK View Post
    So this is bad?

    Name:  TedTed.JPG
Views: 118
Size:  9.9 KB
    He is not pushing his knee in that picture.

    In general, there are lots of racers with movement patterns that are not healthy.

    Functional movements, what does it mean? It depends on the function.
    If the function is to get the best possible time compromised back positions and knee-pushing may be acceptable, but if the function is body health, it is not.

    If your back or knees ever hurt after a ski day, chances are big that your movement patterns are not in line with the latter function.
    Bode is a recent example of what repeated compromised back positions can do to your back.

    Strength coaches are very concerned if the knee goes inside when squatting, not everyone seems to be concerned about that in skiing, although it is the same type of loading on the body.
    Last edited by Jamt; January 22nd, 2015 at 02:15 AM.

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